Live Free Or D.I.Y. Episode #06: Challenges (Season 1 Finale)
Episode Description
In this episode, hosts Dana Bollen (Two Week Notice Podcast / Touring Roadie) and Andrew Mall (Music Professor - Northeastern University) are joined by ten of our Season 1 panel members to discuss some of the biggest changes that we've experienced within the DIY music scenes over the last few decades & the challenges that we face today. Several panelists also share advice that is valuable to anyone who is involved in these communities.
Panel members for this episode include:
Norman Brannon (Thursday / Texas Is The Reason / Anti-Matter Zine)
Luke Garro (Piebald / Fastbreak / In My Eyes)
Ace Enders (The Early November / I Can Make A Mess)
Joey Chiaramonte (Koyo)
Chris Wrenn (Bridge 9 Records)
Brandon Davis (Vanna / Fever333 / Lions Lions / INSPIRIT)
Ali Lipman (Cape Crush / Moon Over Salem)
Chad Johnson (Furnace Fest)
Jeff Apruzzese (Passion Pit / Drexel University)
Matt Dunn (DIY Promoter / University of South Carolina)
This episode features cameos (via the Two Week Notice podcast) by:
Kurt Ballou (Converge)
Matt Pryor (The Get Up Kids)
Episode Links
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Credits
Thank you for your contributions to this podcast:
Anthony Robbins (Research Assistance)
Ioanis Pintzopolous (Production Assistance)
Kira Burr (Graphic Design)
Todd Pollock (Cover photo)
Casey & Iodine Recordings
Piebald (podcast theme music)
Aaron Stuart (cover photo talent & legend)
Northeastern University (funding)
Episode Transcript
Luke Garro: The good things that you put out into the world will eventually come back to you. And being a helpful person, being a good contributor, being supportive will ultimately help you. And then, taking a long-term approach to being the most quality person you can be and making the most quality contributions you can make is the formula to DIY success.
Dana Bollen: Hello everyone, and welcome to Live Free or DIY. On today's episode, we are going to discuss the challenges that we face today in the DIY music scenes. My name is Dana Bollen, I am your co-host, and alongside me is my man and music professor over at Northeastern University, Andrew Mall. Professor!
Andrew Mall: Hey Dana.
Dana Bollen: How's it going?
Andrew Mall: Good, how are you?
Dana Bollen: I'm great. What do you got for me today?
Andrew Mall: Today, I'm really excited about our episode. The conversations on challenges and DIY music scenes, they touch on all the topics that we've been talking about all season. From our very first episode on what even is DIY or independence, to our themes on sustainability and resilience, exposure and sometimes even the fear of overexposure, community and diversity and open-mindedness, and our most recent episode on mental health. All these topics come out in our panelists' interviews and thoughts on the different challenges that they think it's important we address. The thing is, Dana, all these challenges reflect different changes that DIY music scenes have experienced over the last years, decades. So I got a question for you before we kick things off, Dana.
Dana Bollen: Yes. Professor.
Andrew Mall: What changes have you seen in DIY music communities that really stand out?
Dana Bollen: Well, that's a loaded question, Professor, but I'm glad you asked because we've seen a lot of changes over the last couple of decades since you and I started going to shows in the nineties and early two thousands. The ones that stand out to me the most: technology, the internet and social media and how we all communicate and interact with one another is pretty crazy. I didn't have a cell phone when I started going to shows. I'm sure you didn't. In speaking to the technology, it's not just social media, it's how we consume music. And we covered this earlier in the series, but we used to go to the music store and buy CDs or records all the time. Vinyl has certainly had a very strong comeback and still is very much a thing for the diehards, but the point is, it's the streaming. When is the last time a record went platinum? It just doesn't happen anymore or when it does happen, it's like they almost went platinum back in the day and they were so close that they finally hit that number 20 years later. A beautiful side effect of that for the fans' perspective is that it forces bands to go out and play more shows and constantly be touring, but that is a huge challenge for musicians. To me, that's the biggest change that stands out. What about you, Professor? What changes have you noticed?
Andrew Mall: For me, some of the biggest changes have been in who we see at shows. First of all, shows are bigger. Audiences are bigger. I'm going to shows where there are hundreds, sometimes over a thousand people at these concerts for DIY bands and for hardcore bands. I think that's an amazing thing. There's people from all across the gender spectrum. There are people of color, there are older people; maybe I'm one of the older people in the audience. There are certainly younger people in the audience too. I'm seeing kids and teenagers, and sometimes they're there and their parents are accompanying them to make sure it's safe. And sometimes the parents are like me in their forties, or older in their fifties, and they're bringing their kids to these shows to expose them to this scene, to this music. I think that's an awesome thing.
Dana Bollen: Love it, Professor. I have a question for you though.
Andrew Mall: Yes, Dana.
Dana Bollen: We have this wonderful panel that we're going to hear from. Who do you want to kick it to first?
Andrew Mall: Let's turn to Luke Garro of Piebald. We'll hear what he had to say when we asked him what are the top challenges that face DIY music communities.
Luke Garro: The biggest challenge I see that DIY communities face is cutting through the clutter. There's a lot out there. The barrier has been lowered. You can do stuff in real time. Anybody has the capability with the tools at our disposal to get anything done relatively quickly. And this shouldn't be a phase, so to speak. And I know everyone goes through phases. You should look at taking a DIY approach as actually a way of life and adopting that and going all in on it. It's about longevity and sustainability.
Andrew Mall: So when Luke's talking about cutting through the clutter, what I'm hearing, Dana is him really thinking about the kinds of tools that so many bands and musicians and artists have available to them to create their music, record it, distribute it, and get it out to listeners. And so I'm thinking here that this is actually not the first time we're going to hear this idea that the opportunities that bands have because of those technologies also present new challenges. This "cutting through the clutter" idea is one of those because if you're in a band and it's easier for you than it was 20 or 30 years ago to get your music out there, that's true for every other band too. Right? So Dana, this is my question for you. As someone that works with bands, how do you get your listeners' attention, your fans' attention when there's so many other bands, musicians, artists also vying for that attention?
Dana Bollen: That's a great point. Everyone's on social media posting. So how do you reach your fan? How does your post not get buried? I run the Piebald Instagram. I have an Instagram from my podcast. I have my personal Instagram. I'm constantly creating content. We just repressed a record for the first time in 20 years and it's like, all right, what's the best way to do this? Or if we're announcing shows, anything, what day is good to post? How much is posting too much? How much is not enough? What is the best time of day to post? Is your post captivating enough to get people to stop doom scrolling? Do you post a story? Do you post a reel? Do you post on your grid?
I'm still always trying to figure it out and I do my research, but I also feel like the algorithms and the socials, they're always changing. They're always evolving. Instagram has been pretty strong for a while now. I mean, TikTok is obviously huge, but who knows in a couple of years that could be a whole new platform that we move on to. Because way back in the day, it was message boards and then it was MySpace, and then it was Facebook, Snapchat came and went away. So it's a lot of clutter to cut through in a lot of different ways. And even as a consumer, and this is a beautiful thing, but every time you open up that app, you're seeing a new tour announcement, a new show announcement, a new song drop, a new album drop. So it is a challenge.
Andrew Mall: And as those posts go through my feed, I'll see the new tour announcement and I'll think to myself, "Cool, there's a Boston area show, an eastern Mass show. I think I want to go to that. Let me make a mental note." And then I forget. Or I'll see a drop for a vinyl release that I'm excited about. Okay, cool. But it's the middle of the workday, so I can't just go on and place a pre-order. I'll remember to do it later. Then by the time I finally get around to it, it might be sold out. And maybe this is showing my age, Dana, in my mid-forties, but keeping track of that kind of fire hose of information coming at me, that's a huge challenge for me.
Dana Bollen: Maybe you need a personal assistant, Professor.
Andrew Mall: I definitely need a personal assistant to read through my social media accounts and then tell me what my takeaway should be. We're going to hear from my friend Jeff Apruzzese next. Jeff is a music industry professor at Drexel University. He used to play bass in the band Passion Pit, and he speaks directly to this challenge also about how this fire hose of information, sometimes listeners and fans just don't really know what's going on. And then also from the band side, it really can make it harder to form authentic relationships with those listeners. So Jeff Apruzzese is coming up next.
Jeff Apruzzese: For DIY artists, I think some of the biggest benefits and the biggest opportunities are also the biggest challenges. You have the opportunity to make music affordably. You can get your music out there. But just because you can doesn't mean that you can sort of just artificially create a fan base or a community. And so I think that was one of the more unique things that you saw when MySpace launched in the early 2000s and you got Twitter. Social media became this megaphone for a lot of artists to just basically shout things at people: "Buy my tickets! Come to my show! Buy my merchandise!" How people just have the opportunity to blast out all of that information versus creating these relationships with people. And again, for me, those direct relationships a lot of times often correlate directly with performance and that fan-to-artist connection. I think artists sort of need to be cognizant of that.
Dana Bollen: I am so glad Jeff brings that up. I think that's so important, having that genuine connection to your fans because when you're looking at social media, sometimes maybe it doesn't feel as genuine. I could see where people might think that. When I'm on the Piebald Instagram, I do my best to answer every single DM. I think that goes a long way with people. Sometimes it's just like a story share. If somebody tags us, they got the new vinyl repress, I'll share that in the story. And it also helps the band because it reminds people, "Hey, oh yeah, I forgot to order my vinyl." And I think answering those DMs goes a long way. I've had people even say, "Wow, thanks for taking the time to write me back." I think that's crucial.
Andrew Mall: But it sounds like it takes a lot of time, man. And not every band has people working for them or working with them to help manage their socials and help manage all those messages coming in from fans.
Dana Bollen: Yeah, that's a good point. I'm sure that's why Piebald has me doing it for them. This Instagram account, it only has 12,000 followers or something. Some of these bands have five figures or six figures or seven figures. I mean, I'm sure when it gets to that point, you simply cannot -- even if you have a social media manager -- you simply cannot answer all those. But with my situation, I can, and I do. and I'm happy to do it.
I recently heard a podcast interview with Chris DeMakes, he's the singer of Less Than Jake. I love this story. So Less Than Jake, I think they formed in like, I want to say 1992. So they've been around for a while. These guys are veterans, legends. and Chris told this story: back in the 90s, fan mail was a thing, like actual letters. They had a PO box, and fans could write to them and on a regular basis, Less Than Jake, the entire band, they would all get together, sit around a table, brew a big pot of coffee, roll up a couple of joints. They would split up the letters evenly amongst the band, and they would all read the letters, and they would write back to every single letter.
But the really cool part when Chris told the story, he said that till this day, every time they go on tour, they got fans coming up with that letter that was sent back to them from the band in the 90s. Like, "Hey, I still got this letter. I just wanted to show you and tell you how much it meant to me. Can you sign it real quick? Can we take a picture or whatever?" That's how you connect with your fans. I mean, that is such a cool story and you're going to have a fan for life. And while I think actual mail isn't really -- fan mail is not a thing anymore for the most part -- but that is I think a really good way to lean into the technology. While maybe writing back to a DM is not as impactful as sending a letter, it still goes a really long way just to give someone a minute. Even if you're just saying, "Hey, thanks so much for buying that record," or "Thanks for the support over the years," or just to make it a little personalized. It really, I think for a fan, it's just really wholesome. I think.
Andrew Mall: We're going to turn next to Brandon Davis. He's talking about shows too, but his perspective on the challenges that the scenes face is slightly different when it comes to the live show experience. So let's kick it to Brandon.
Brandon Davis: I think some of the challenges are just the fact that due to things that have happened in the past, it's affected the ability to be able to perform live. For example, there have been a lot of venues that have shut down or have stopped allowing aggressive styles of music to happen at these places of business. In the early 2000s, anybody could rent any hall at all. It didn't matter what it was. You can rent any VFW, any Portuguese American club, any Knights of Columbus, any Moose Lodge, and just tell them what you were doing. "Oh, what are you guys going to be doing with the space?" "Oh, we're just going to have a concert." "Okay, cool." Now it's like because these concerts would happen and the place would be over capacity and breaking fire codes and people got injured, a lot of these places just don't allow it anymore. And the ones that do, they've become money hungry.
They'll see like, "Oh, we let these kids rent our hall last time and they charged $20 a head and 400 people came. So they made quite a bit of money, much more than our rental cost was. So now the next time they do that, we're going to take a percentage of the door and we're going to require them to have a police officer or we're going to require them to have security." So it's like that's become difficult, is that these places are either not allowing people to do the thing or they're requiring so much that it makes it not viable. They'll try to take all the bands' money. I would say that that's definitely something that's made it difficult.
I think also a lot of these places, they don't want to allow a band to play if the band's not going to bring a lot of people because their staff that they hired, how are they going to pay them? How are they going to pay security? How are they going to pay the sound guy\ if a bunch of people don't show up and drink at the bar to make a bunch of money? Whereas back in the day, some bars would just let a band play. It's like, "If you don't draw anybody, we just don't pay you." So I think that that is kind of the current climate of things.
And then also there's some promoters are predatory and will force a band to sell 200 tickets to play a show and then not pay the band or not let them play if they don't sell all the tickets. So that's also something that's been going on, and it's because the promoter doesn't believe in themselves and their ability to promote, So they make these kids sell all the tickets to make the money to pay the headlining band. So that's kind of something that happens these days that personally I feel is pretty whack. It's like, it's your job as a promoter to promote your show and to get people to go there. And yes, the bands playing should probably tell people about the show as well, but at the end of the day, it's the promoter's job to promote the concert and if no one shows up, it should be solely the promoter's fault. That's just my personal opinion.
Dana Bollen: Brandon brought up a lot of great points in there. He brought up a couple different challenges as well. So the big challenge there, which has come up throughout this series, is having space to put on these all-ages shows.
Andrew Mall: And I want to come back to that in a little bit, but can we talk a little bit more about this idea of predatory promoters? Is that a concern?
Dana Bollen: Yeah, it's absolutely a concern. I'm glad he brought that up because no one has throughout this series and something that I wouldn't have learned if I wasn't a tour manager. For those who don't know, at the end of every show, the tour manager and usually the promoter or someone who represents the promoter will "settle." And what that means is, you go over the financials essentially making sure the band gets paid according to the contract that was worked out for that show. I always have that contract printed out or I pull it up on my phone when it comes time to settle because there's a lot in there and people get weird when it comes to money. I don't want to stereotype promoters here, but there are some predatory promoters. Brandon is absolutely right.
And, not to sound like I'm contradicting Brandon, but the whole point of having support acts is to help sell tickets. I don't know if it's necessarily solely on the promoter if nobody comes out to the shows. It is their job. I mean, it's called promoter, right? So they are responsible for it. But like we've talked about throughout this series, do-it-yourself doesn't necessarily mean do it by yourself. It takes a village, and naturally the bands want people to come out to the show too. They should be telling people about the show and doing what they can. But I don't disagree with Brandon because he is right. The promoter needs to do their part.
And I can tell you, all right, here's an example of a predatory promoter. One time I was settling a show and the promoter had the printout of all the expenses. One of them was a marketing expense for like $800. I looked at that and I was like, dude, I've been calling you for the last couple months trying to advance the show. So the tour manager will "advance" the show for those who don't know, which just means you get in touch with the promoter several weeks or a couple months leading up to the show to strategize and talk about what the plan is to get the word out and also just kind of work out the logistics. What time is load-in? What time is soundcheck? Where do we park? Stuff like that. So in this example where I'm settling the show and I see a marketing expense for $800, I immediately had to question him because this particular promoter, like I couldn't get him on the phone, and he wasn't answering my emails until about two days before the show. There were no flyers around town. We didn't do any social media boosts or anything. Where is that $800 coming from? What did we do to market this show? Because you didn't do anything. I went to Staples and printed out flyers myself and hung them up around town because you weren't answering me and I wanted to do something. So sometimes promoters get a little weird when you're reading through all the expenses. To me that's predatory and really scummy.
Andrew Mall: Dana, is there a difference to be made between DIY promoters who are just really inexperienced and don't really know what they're doing, and promoters who are maybe just trying to take advantage of bands thinking those bands don't know what's up? I ask you this because I know every DIY band has a story of showing up to some underground venue and it's dark and the kid who booked the show is nowhere to be found, right? Every band has a story like that. But what you're describing, it sounds like someone going out of their way to take advantage of a band thinking maybe that they don't know what's up.
Dana Bollen: I think it could be a combination of things. Oftentimes the DIY ones though, they're usually younger and more green. Maybe they don't exactly have a grasp on things yet in how to put on a show, but those ones are usually the ones who are willing to do anything. They have the right attitude and the right work ethic. They're just still learning. That is forgivable. I would rather deal with that any day of the week than dealing with someone who is just kind of checked out. Maybe it's not as big of a show to them and they just don't really give a shit. Or someone who is trying to pocket some extra money by adding all these extra expenses that aren't actually something that they're spending money on. They're just pocketing the money and that happens so often.
One thing I've learned, I will say to anyone out there, ask for receipts for everything. And you tell 'em upfront when you're advancing the show that you need receipts for everything prior to settling. Everything! I want to see the receipt for that veggie tray that you put in the green room or the beers that we got. Everything! You have a right to ask that, because it should be an open and honest, straightforward -- when you ask for a receipt and they get weird about it, that's when they're probably trying to be predatory and you might be dealing with the scumbag.
Andrew Mall: As shows get bigger, we still want to pay attention to the need for spaces for all-ages shows as well, right? The smaller shows are still such an important fabric of DIY music communities. So when we posed this question about challenges to Ali Lipman and to Joey of Koyo, that's something that they really leaned into. So we're going to hear from Ali of Cape Crush and Joey of Koyo back-to-back, coming up next.
Ali Lipman: So I think the biggest challenges that face DIY music communities today are lack of space. Lack of space isn't just places that will host shows. It's also places that will host all-ages shows. So, while there might be venues, there might be places that you can play if everybody in your band is 21, it's going to be a lot harder to do if you're in that under-21 and especially if you're in that under-18 crowd. So we definitely need to make sure that there's more places that will host all-ages music.
Joey Chiaramonte: That's a good question. I think specifically pertaining to music itself, it's always the same problem's kind of eternally had, and that's just space that is all-ages and accessible places that can hold shows and handle what they are, in all senses. And I think weirdly enough, with the size and scope and scale, there's a lot of places that can take on bigger shows right now and are cool with all the moshing, the stage diving, whatever. I think it's more of an issue of where do you put a small show right now? Where do you put a show where you don't expect more than 30 people there? That's a persistent problem in a lot of places that I think people eternally also figure out, but that is the greatest problem. It's like for those people who really sink their teeth into this whole thing, where are they going to go to see a show that isn't a AAA hardcore touring festival? Where are you going to see the total grassroots of this stuff? Where are you going to get to go meet your friends and participate and build from the ground up? Those are the places and the spaces. I think that's the biggest challenge. That never gets all that much better, all that much worse, truthfully. I don't think there's a true solution to the problem, but it is, in fact, the problem: you need small, accessible, all-ages, places to hold shows, and not every place has that or access to that.
Andrew Mall: So these all-ages shows and the small shows that Joey and Ali are talking about in their responses, these are not shows that are going to be very profitable for the promoter or for the venue. And this reminds me of the things that Brandon Davis was talking about too, right? That the cost of shows even for very, very small promoters keeps going up and that can make it really difficult no matter what kind of show you're planning. The cost of rent keeps going up for landlords, the cost of their property taxes keeps going up, all the overhead costs for the bills and everything, all that gets passed down to the promoters who are renting things out. So I think it's an ongoing conversation in part because there is no easy solution.
I think what it really does present is an opportunity to remind people how important live performance is for communities. And I'm thinking about the Furnace Fest community when I'm talking about this, Dana, because that's how you and I first connected. We're both super into that event. We've gone multiple years. I've gone the last four years. You can tell us how many years you've gone, and being connected through the community that is rooted at that event has been, for me, a life-changing experience in a lot of ways. This is a community that feels really, really supportive, that exists in-person in Birmingham, Alabama for just a few days every year, but has this other life online where people are really connecting with each other, supporting each other, building each other up, talking about music for sure, but talking about way more things other than music also.
Dana Bollen: Well said, Professor. It's a really special community. I've gone to Furnace Fest all four years since they brought it back. DIY-rooted festival for sure. They've built something really special. It's been life-changing for me, going there every year and being part of that community. And it's a real perfect example of these communities that we build around these DIY music scenes, in a lot of ways are just as powerful as the music itself.
Andrew Mall: We're going to turn to Chad Johnson next. He's one of the organizers of Furnace Fest. He's also the founder of Furnace Fest, back in the year 2000. And for many people involved in the Furnace Fest community, he's kind of like this figurehead, this benevolent, almost paternal person in the community who lots of people look up to as having had a very large role in these very important and formative experiences. But even Chad struggles with working in community. So we're going to turn to him and hear his perspectives on some of the challenges that face DIY music scenes, especially when the community is so, so very strong. Chad Johnson.
Chad Johnson: Maybe the temptation that going through the process alone and without the community support, that's definitely something that I've struggled with throughout my life, is believing that, "Oh, if I want to get something done, no better person to get it done than me." But that's really a sad approach and a really unfruitful one as it relates to how much more satisfying and gratifying it is to work with others and the gift they bring and the perspective they have to offer and all of that. So I think that avoiding isolation and including others, especially when they don't agree with the way you see it, is a great starting point.
Dana Bollen: Chad Johnson, I feel like every conversation I have with him, I come away with a good life lesson or life reminder. What he said about the challenge of trying to do everything on your own and remembering not to isolate yourself, that just hits home for me. I dunno if it's a stubborn thing, or I think it's being stubborn combined with -- I just don't like asking people for help. I always feel like I'm bothering people.
Andrew Mall: Well, I'm definitely going to wear my professor hat. What I want to remind you, and our listeners, and Chad, one of the things that we talked about the very, very beginning of the series is the value of doing it together. Because really in community, in collaboration, that's where we find strength. We asked Norman Brannon the same question. He's been playing in Thursday for several years now, and so his answer to what challenges faced DIY music scenes is really rooted in his experiences with Thursday and how they've been conducting themselves as a band over the last several years. Norm Brannon, next.
Norman Brannon: I feel like the old challenges have never been resolved for there to be new challenges. I think that when we talk about DIY, we also have a variety of different definitions of what that means. And I think that, for me anyway, I'm looking at it at a different place in my life. So for example, Thursday have recently -- we've begun writing, and we're releasing new songs, and we're doing it by ourselves. We are not bringing in another label. We've pressed records by ourselves. We put it on digital by ourselves. We record it by ourselves, our bass player is our producer. It's as DIY at this point as anything I've ever done. It's more DIY, honestly, than anything I've ever done.
And we've made this conscious decision to do it largely because we don't want to be a band on anyone else's timetable. We don't want to necessarily even put out albums because we feel like maybe that's archaic right now. Maybe we just put out songs when we write them and we like them and we feel confident about them and we want to bring them into the cannon. But whatever the case is, every decision is ours and we make them as we feel like it. And that type of freedom is the thing that I think that is valuable to the band at this moment in time. Because I think Thursday has this history -- long before I was in the band -- Thursday has this really long history of being screwed around by indie labels and major labels alike, and they're over it. If anyone's going to screw us around, we'll screw ourselves around.
And so there are different reasons for doing what you do. At the same time, that freedom comes at a cost. We know that whatever we put out, it's not going to be -- unless there's some sort of freak TikTok component -- it's not going to be a massive hit. We're not going for those nine-figure streaming numbers. It's just not going to happen. And that's fine. We've decided what's important to us, and we're making decisions based on that. And I think that every DIY project or actor needs to do that for themselves. What is your objective? What is the most important thing about the thing that you're doing? And then make the decisions and take the trade-offs, right? We are not putting out new music because we think, "Oh, revenue stream." There's no fucking revenue stream on Spotify. Pennies. So we have to decide what it is that we want and we have to act on that conviction alone. And I think that that's the time-honored way of doing something yourself.
Andrew Mall: I also asked Norm why he still does this. Why is he still involved in DIY music scenes after so many decades of going to shows and playing in bands? Here's what he said.
Norman Brannon: If I'm being honest, the only reason that I am still as active as I am in this community is because I think that there's value in having a queer person of color who's fucking completely out there talking about his life, to where there are thousands of people who can say, at least parasocially, they know a queer person of color and what that person is going through. It's an individual thing. It's still my life. I'm not proposing to speak for the entire queer community or the entire bipoc community. It's still a completely individual situation. But it's a voice that I think needs to be present, and I enjoy being that voice.
Andrew Mall: So I want to amplify what Norman is saying here. There's a lot of value, aside from the value of him playing in bands and making music and writing Anti-Matter, there's a lot of value for him being a visible and audible queer person of color in DIY music scenes. The reason why is something that we touched upon briefly in our episode on community when we were talking about the diversity of our scenes and how open-minded they are. We have great aspirations to being incredibly diverse and being very, very open-minded. And our scenes oftentimes don't live up to those expectations. So when someone like Norm Brannon chooses to be that visible person, to be an example for people who maybe don't look like everyone else in the scene, maybe don't identify the same way as everyone else in the scene, there's a huge benefit to that.
And we're going to turn next to my friend Matt Dunn. He teaches music industry at the University of South Carolina. He has a background in booking shows for many, many, many years in Syracuse. But when I asked him why he's still involved, he was reflecting on how important the hardcore and DIY music scene is to his own identity and a sense of who he is. Matt Dunn, next.
Matt Dunn: It's in my blood. I mean, I haven't called myself straightedge, and I haven't put an X on my hands in 15 years, but I still live it. I still breathe it. I still bleed it. It's just how I was raised. It's where I found my most confidence. And I mean, I love checking out new bands. I love checking out younger stuff and seeing where things can go. So I still stick to it because it's just who I am. And maybe I'm trapped in that anchor of sense of I don't know who I am outside of that. That's a conversation for another day though.
Dana Bollen: I absolutely loved everything that Matt had to say there. Specifically, I loved what he said about how it gave him the confidence, or that's where he learned how to be confident in life. That is just so beautiful and powerful. You know what I mean, Professor?
Andrew Mall: I mean, I sure do. It reminds me of something that Norm said in an earlier episode where he mentioned that we kind of learned who we are by participating in these DIY music scenes.
Dana Bollen: I love that, Professor. So we're going to switch it up here a little bit. We asked a handful of our panelists what advice they might have based on their experience and the knowledge that they've gained in these DIY music scenes. Words of wisdom from Joey, Ace, Chris, Brandon, and Luke, back-to-back. Let's get into it. Joey Chiaramonte of Koyo.
Joey Chiaramonte: The one thing I would encourage anyone in any setting or any level of tenure with anything to do is to just try authentically to do what feels good to you. You don't have to force anything in life. If it feels good, follow that feeling and try and do right by people around you and yourself. And if you want to change up what you're doing with your life, if something doesn't feel natural or good, listen to that feeling, because it's probably right. If the water's warm, swim, it's okay to follow that current, or so to speak. That's the best thing I think anyone could do, is just do what feels natural and not fight it if it feels good.
Dana Bollen [Two Week Notice excerpt]: Hey folks, if you like this podcast, then you will definitely dig the Two Week Notice podcast. For those of you who don't know, I host another podcast where I interview musicians in the DIY, hardcore, punk, emo, the scene. That show is called the Two Week Notice podcast. You could find the link to the Two Week Notice podcast in the show notes of this episode that you are listening to right now. Or go on your preferred podcast platform and type in "Two Week Notice." It's the one with the peace sign. And I think it would be very fitting to play a few clips from Two Week Notice right now on this show to give you an idea of the vibe that is Two Week Notice. And these particular clips are very pertaining to this mental health discussion that we're having right now. So here's a clip from the two week notice podcast from my interview with Kurt Ballou of Converge.
Kurt Ballou: My advice is do the work. I think people come up with all sorts of excuses not to do the work. You care about something, put the time into it, and maybe something comes of it, maybe something doesn't, but nothing's going to come of it if you don't try. And the other thing too is the more you try, the more you increase your chances of success. Let's say 10% of the songs you write are good. You write one song, there's only a 10% chance that one song's going to be good. You write 10 songs, one of those songs is going to be good. You write a hundred songs, 10 of those songs are going to be good. And if you keep plugging away, you increase your chances of success. You also get more experience, you get better at your craft, and you make more connections and all that. So instead of sitting around and thinking of excuses not to try something, just go do it.
Dana Bollen: Here's a clip of the Two Week Notice podcast from my interview with Matt Pryor of The Get Up Kids.
Matt Pryor: Don't wait for someone to do anything for you. Be open to that if it comes, but you have to put the wheels in motion yourself, and then you have to be able to pivot on a dime if all of a sudden its opportunity turns its head your way. I give the example of, we had just done a six week tour, and then they were like, "Hey, can you fly to New York tomorrow? And you'll be on Conan?" And you're like, "I'm so fucking tired. I don't want to fly." And just, but you have to be open to those things. You don't have to uproot your life or anything, but you can't wait around to get on Conan O'Brien. You know what I mean? It's just kind of like, I'm a firm believer in that if you put the wheels in motion, the universe will catch up to you. And that so far hasn't really let me down, that philosophy.
Dana Bollen: Make sure to check out the Two Week Notice podcast on most podcast platforms, or just follow the link in the description of this current podcast episode.
Up next, Ace Enders of The Early November.
Ace Enders: One of the hardest things -- once you get on your journey, one of the hardest things to stick to is to just follow the passion. If you have to make a decision, go with the more passionate. Say for instance, picking a management team, what everyone's more passionate about, what it is that you're doing, try and locate that and try and find that. If it's the decision between two different songs on an album, what one pulls you more? Don't make the decisions based off of what the reaction is going to be or how it's going to be interpreted. Try and really locate the heart of it because that's what we lack right now, is that we all want it, but we don't put it out there. So follow that passion however you possibly can, whether you're making a decision, "Oh, am I going to go to school? Am I going to go on tour?" What is the burning inside you? And go that way. And I think that's the thing to stick to.
Dana Bollen: Up next, Chris Wrenn of Bridge 9 Records.
Chris Wrenn: Start with whatever resources you have. Don't tell yourself, "I'll start when I can get this or when I have this." Ultimately, I know with Bridge 9, the first record was very bare bones. The recording was inexpensive. The covers were just black and white, printed fold-over covers. There was no bells or whistles. I had very limited means. I just did what I could with it at that moment. And then all of a sudden the light bulb goes off, and people are like, "Oh, wait, you're doing something." So the support that kind of pops up around you once you start something, multiple doors open. But those doors stay closed or don't even exist until you make your mark with whatever it is you're starting.
So when people are like, "Oh, I have this idea. I want to do--" whatever it is, I tell people, "Just start with whatever means you have kind of plant that flagpole down and then build off of it." You don't need to wait until you have the nicest equipment or the best production or whatever it is you think you need, right? You can grow into that. So just get started and it'll become easier because when you do that first thing, that first time, it's probably by yourself, but when you do the second one, maybe you have two people helping you, at least emotionally supporting you. And then by the time the third or the fourth, maybe you have a dozen people around you that are like easing some of the work or helping you network or helping create whatever opportunities you're trying to grow into. So I think that's super important. Don't wait.
Dana Bollen: Up next. Brandon Davis of Inspirit, Lions Lions, Vanna, and Fever 333.
Brandon Davis: Stay persistent. Make sure that you're just practicing your craft. Make sure that you're staying up on all the areas that you need to stay up on, and don't get discouraged. And I would say, learn how to accept constructive criticism and use it to grow, and also learn the difference between constructive criticism and just actual criticism and insults. Not everybody's going to like what you do. I think it's very important to understand that and be okay with it, and have that not affect your self-esteem, and have it not affect your ability to stay dedicated to what you're doing. I think if you're passionate about something and it means something to you, I think you should continue to do it. Maybe it'll look different, maybe it'll change. Maybe you shouldn't do it the exact way that you're doing it. Maybe you need to evolve, but don't just throw the whole thing away. Your core idea, your dream, like your core thing. Stick with it.
Dana Bollen: Up next, Luke Garro of Piebald.
Luke Garro: You should look at taking a DIY approach as actually a way of life and adopting that and going all in on it. It's about longevity and sustainability, and some of the best things take years to come to fruition. Really putting in that effort and that work and believing in yourself is going to help you cut through the clutter. I mentioned this before, but: quality. Work on what your craft is and really figure out what makes you unique and how you can be that best version of yourself, and project that to the world. And if you have quality and you're willing to do the work and you're doing all the right things by being friendly to people and providing help where you can, I can't help but think it'll come back to you. There's a classic Piebald song, "We Believe in Karma." And I've always believed that, well before I joined Piebald, is that the good things that you put out into the world will eventually come back to you. And being a helpful person, being a good contributor, being supportive will ultimately help you. And then taking a long-term approach to being the most quality person you can be and making the most quality contributions you can make is the formula to DIY success.
Dana Bollen: All right, words of wisdom from some of our panel there. Professor?
Andrew Mall: Hey, Dana.
Dana Bollen: I have a question.
Andrew Mall: Yeah, what's up?
Dana Bollen: What advice do you have for the people?
Andrew Mall: Wow, that's a big question. The advice I have for our listeners and people who are excited and invest in DIY music communities is often the same advice that I give to my own students. The first, don't forget that you're not alone. I think that's hugely important in DIY music communities: find your people. You may find them in the most unexpected places, but when you find 'em, stick to them and hold them tightly because they are the ones that are going to keep you going. They're going to be the ones that help you get things done.
My other piece of advice is to listen to others. And I think that's so important in today's day and age when there are so many other things vying for our attention. And as we talked about earlier in this episode, it can oftentimes be very difficult to form authentic relationships and connections. We really need to be paying attention to other people's concerns and values and worries, and also their joys and their successes. And we can only do that when we stop to really listen and pay attention to what they're saying instead of simply just waiting for our turn to speak.
And the last piece of advice that I would have: care about others. There've been some stories where people on this podcast have had to deal with challenging situations. And in so many of those conflicts that we've heard about -- Dana, some of those stories are from you -- there's always someone kind of looking out for number one instead of looking out for others. If we want to have scenes in communities where we're caring for each other and holding each other up, then we really need to focus on being selfless to make that happen. What about you, Dana? What advice do you have for our listeners?
Dana Bollen: What I would say for advice: work hard, work really hard. Go above and beyond whenever you can. Even if it's something that isn't necessarily required of you or expected of you. Not only is it selfless, it's a really good opportunity. And then maybe they'll want to work with you again. Be honest. Whenever you fuck up, own it. I would rather my boss hear from me first if I screwed up, than have them hear from somebody else. Being likable is really important. If you're likable and you're a really positive force, you're always smiling and have a good attitude. Easier said than done, we all have bad days. But when it's a really hard day on the road and things just aren't going the way that they should be or as planned, everyone needs positivity around them. And if you can be that person that people lean on when everything's miserable, it goes a really long way. Not only is it good for morale for yourself and for those around you, but it can lead to more gigs. I think having a good positive attitude is half the battle.
And conversely, don't talk shit. Don't be negative. Nobody likes working with someone who's just constantly complaining or gossiping or just spreading that negative energy. I would also say, something that has worked for me is finding a mentor: someone who is maybe in a position that you aspire to be in one day, someone that you really admire in the way that they conduct themselves and the decisions that they make. If you click with that person, you really get along well, that's your mentor. You need someone who you can call when you're in a situation that you've never been in before, and maybe you need help. And this speaks to what you were talking about, Professor, in remembering that you're not alone. Having someone to reach out to in a moment that is very difficult is so important. And lastly, what I'll say is, check in on people. Just be like, "Yo, what up dude? Fist pound. How's your day so far? How's it going? How was your day off?" I just think checking in on people is so crucial. I think that's all I got, Professor. What do you say we wrap this thing up?
Andrew Mall: That's great stuff, Dana. And here we are at the end of season one of Live Free or DIY. Listen, I've had a great time working on this podcast with you. It's been awesome, collaborative experience. I want to thank you for working with me. I want to thank all of our panelists for agreeing to appear on the show. And I also want to thank all of our listeners for tuning in this season. We do this for you. So thanks.
Dana Bollen: I just want to echo that. Thank you, Professor. I think I've personally grown, honestly, I've learned a lot throughout this whole process. I love creating. It's been a lot of fun. And again, thank you to our entire panel that really made the series what it is. Thank you to everyone who has taken the time to listen. If you haven't already, make sure you hit that subscribe button and make sure that you stay subscribed. Stay connected with us on the socials because we are not done here. We have plans for some bonus content, and we have plans in the works for season two.
Andrew Mall: Thanks for listening to Live Free or DIY.
[Credits roll]: Live Free or DIY is co-hosted by myself, Andrew Mall.
Dana Bollen: This show is also co-hosted and produced by Dana Bollen, editing assistance from Ioanis Pintzopolous,
Andrew Mall: Research assistances and production assistances by Anthony Robbins. Funding provided by Northeastern University.
Dana Bollen: Graphic design by Kara Burr. Cover photo shot by Todd Pollock. Podcast theme song brought to you by Piebald and Iodine Recordings. Head on over to Iodinerecordings.com for very special anniversary vinyl represses from bands such as Piebald, Fastbreak, Quicksand, Further Seems Forever, Stretch Armstrong, as well as incredible new artists signings, The New Scene podcast, and so much more. That's Iodinerecordings.com. And lastly, if you enjoyed the show, make sure to rate, subscribe and follow on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, YouTube, and Instagram. You can find links to everything in the show notes of this very episode.