Live Free Or D.I.Y. Episode #05: Mental Health

Live Free Or D.I.Y.
Written By Andrew Mall

Episode Description

In this episode, hosts Dana Bollen (Two Week Notice Podcast / Touring Roadie) and Andrew Mall (Music Professor - Northeastern University) are joined by nine of our Season 1 panel members to discuss the mental health benefits that we gain through being involved in DIY music scenes & communities.

Panel members for this episode include:

  • Norman Brannon (Thursday / Texas Is The Reason / Anti-Matter Zine)

  • ​Luke Garro (Piebald / Fastbreak / In My Eyes)

  • Ace Enders (The Early November / I Can Make A Mess)

  • Joey Chiaramonte (Koyo)

  • Chris Wrenn (Bridge 9 Records)

  • Brandon Davis (Vanna / Fever333 / Lions Lions / INSPIRIT)

  • Ali Lipman (Cape Crush / Moon Over Salem)

  • Chad Johnson (Furnace Fest)

  • Johnny Grimes (Furnace Fest / Workplay Birmingham)

This episode features cameos (via the Two Week Notice podcast) by:

  • Marisa Dabice ⁠⁠⁠(Mannequin P*ssy)

  • Jack O'Shea⁠⁠⁠ (Bayside)

  • Matt Pryor⁠⁠⁠ (The Get Up Kids)

  • Brian Sella ⁠⁠⁠(The Front Bottoms)⁠⁠

Mental Health Resources

Episode Links

Credits

Thank you for your contributions to this podcast:

  • Anthony Robbins (Research Assistance)

  • Ioanis Pintzopolous (Production Assistance)

  • Kira Burr (Graphic Design)

  • Todd Pollock (Cover photo)

  • ⁠Furnace Fest⁠

  • Casey & ⁠Iodine Recordings⁠

  • ⁠Piebald⁠ (podcast theme music)

  • Aaron Stuart (cover photo talent & legend)

  • Northeastern University (funding)

Episode Transcript

Norman Brannon: Asking for help is a good thing. It's always a good thing. You cannot DIY your own therapy.

Dana Bollen: Welcome to Live Free Or DIY. My name is Dana Bollen. I am your co-host, and alongside me is my man, music professor over at Northeastern University, Andrew Mall. Professor!

Andrew Mall: Hey Dana.

Dana Bollen: How are you doing today?

Andrew Mall: I'm doing great. How are you?

Dana Bollen: I'm great. What are we talking about today?

Andrew Mall: Today, Dana, we're talking about mental health and DIY music. Some of the things we're going to be talking about in the episode today, about the connection between mental health and DIY music communities, is about the grounding aspect of shows; how for a lot of people, myself included, and I think for you too, it's really important to our own emotional and mental stability, it helps us stay centered, helps us stay focused, helps us be who we are. I think for a lot of other people it reminds us that we're not alone.

Dana Bollen: I'm really happy that we're getting into this episode. I've been looking forward to it for a long time. You want to get into it?

Andrew Mall: Yeah. We're going to turn to Norm Brannon first. He plays guitar in the band Thursday, writes the zine Anti-Matter. Norm Brannon kicking us off.

Norman Brannon: When I talk about mental health in terms of punk, I think there's a chicken or the egg situation, because are there more people in punk who have some type of psychological challenges? I think there are, but not because of punk; it's because we came that way. We were attracted to punk in the first place because we felt different from the world, because we struggled in other social situations, because we came from dysfunctional families, because -- any number of reasons why a disaffected kid would turn to a community of misfits. I was already fucked up, right? Before I came to punk, before I went to my first show, totally fucked up. So, I'm still carrying a lot of those mental challenges into my life, into the future. I've dealt with them a lot as an adult, and I've done my spare share of therapy, and I feel like I've battled and won with a number of my demons, but not all of them. And it's still something that I'm dealing with. And I think that as a community, we are all dealing with. And the most that we can do, unfortunately, because -- it's not like you can get punk healthcare. It's not like Discord has an arm of therapists on the phone waiting for your call. The most that we can do at least is open a conversation, lessen the stigma, and encourage each other to get help when we truly need it.

The other thing that a lot of creative communities have as a problem, in my opinion, is this notion that what we do is therapy itself. And I think that we have this notion that, oh, well, when I make a record or write a song, that's my therapy. That is not therapy. That is expression. It's valid, it's helpful, it's brought me across a few roads in my life for sure, but it's not help. And I think that until we understand that asking for help is a good thing -- not even to say, I don't even want to frame that as asking for help is not a bad thing: Asking for help is a good thing. It's always a good thing. You cannot DIY your own therapy.

Andrew Mall: Dana, we just heard from Norm Brannon there talking about how punk music, hardcore music, DIY music scenes were like a place of refuge for him as a teenager who kind of felt like a misfit or an outcast. And listen, I have a question for you, Dana.

Dana Bollen: Yes, Professor?

Andrew Mall: When you were in high school and discovering this music, what was your social circle? Did you fit in with the cool kids? Were you a jock? How did you navigate high school?

Dana Bollen: I like to think I got along with pretty much everybody. When my social anxiety would flare up the most, and I'm sure a lot of people can relate, was if you were at the end of that lunch line, you come out with your tray and there's not many places to sit and you just want to cry inside. And a lot of times I would sit with the football players. A lot of times I would sit with the drama club kids. A lot of times I would sit with some of my closer friends if I had lunch at the same time as them. But I will say if there was one place I knew I was always welcome and that there was going to be a seat available, it was the punk and hardcore kids, I remember, also the goth kids. There seemed to be some overlap there with the goth kids and the kid wearing a Bane shirt or me wearing a Weezer shirt. I hadn't thought about that in a long time. What about you, Professor?

Andrew Mall: When I was in high school, I was a music nerd. I was in the band and the chorus, and I hung out with all the other band and chorus kids. And I was in all the smart classes, and sometimes that meant that I didn't hang out with the cool kids. But one of the great things about where I was going to high school is that so many of the music nerds, we went to local shows together, local punk, hardcore, DIY shows. And so there was definitely a lot of overlap. And the thing is, looking back on that now, from where I am as an adult, as a grownup: I'm a music professor. I'm professionally involved in music, and yet I still feel sometimes I don't connect as easily with other adults in my social circles. Sometimes that's people at work, sometimes that's people that I know through my daughter's school. Sometimes it's even people that I've known for a really long time and count them as close friends. But our professional paths are very different and sometimes our other social circles are very different.

And here's the thing, Dana, when I walk into a show, first of all, I don't know everyone at that show anymore. Very few people, right, by sight, but when I walk into that show, I know that these are my people. There are times when walking into that show alone and even just the act of walking into that show and knowing that I'm setting myself up for 2, 3, 4 hours of just a lot of fun is really revitalizing and really resets my head to a good space and gives me the energy that I need to keep doing the things that I do in the rest of my life. Ace Enders talks about some of this stuff too in the interview clip we're going to play next. So Ace Enders of The Early November.

Ace Enders: Well, first, I think the DIY communities are really helpful and really important because when you can figure something out as a crew, as a group, as a unit with whoever you are participating in this with, whether they're with you right there or across the country and you're somehow contributing together, it brings you a sense of "you're not alone." And that's really important in relation to mental health and all that stuff. For me, I think that was really important because it taught me how to really thrive as an individual and as a human. I was very isolated as a youth, so it was really important for me to find this group of people out there who have been supporting us or with us for a long time that have really helped in aiding in how I just view myself. Because you feel like, "Oh wait, no, what I'm feeling is not just me feeling. It's very common. It's not this really rare special thing. It's like you feel it as well as everyone else." And as far as mental health goes, I think that's a lot of it. We put ourselves in our own boxes in our mind and create these walls around us a lot. And when you can expand those walls by inviting more people in this type of way, especially in this community sense, it really does help. I mean, I'm a relatively to myself person, I mean not so much anymore, but I was -- I could be on stage in front of thousands of people and it's like, "This feels, I feel right. I don't need to pretend or fight to figure out what to say. It just makes sense." You just feel comfortable in those situations, and that is sort of I guess how it is when you're in any type of scene. It's like, when you're in your place with your people, it feels great.

Dana Bollen: I love what Ace Enders said right there, particularly when he spoke to how the DIY music community taught him how to thrive. I mean that is a beautiful, beautiful thing for his story and just growth as an individual. It's like he unlocked a new level in his mind that he maybe never would've got elsewhere.

Andrew Mall: I love that. We're going to hear next from Ali Lipman. She runs shows in Boston's North Shore neighborhoods and suburbs and she's also in the band, Cape Crush.

Ali Lipman: A music community and music events are "third places." They are a place that's not work, that's not school. You can be around other like-minded people with a thread of connection and have this really human experience. It goes back to our caveman roots, to be together and listening to music, enjoying music, dancing, singing, whatever it may be with one another. I think that's really important in today's day and age. We're increasingly isolated. I just feel like our society is designed to isolate us. We sit in our cars alone, we sit in our houses. I work remotely. I talk to my colleagues on Slack or I am not with them ever in person. And then I log off at five o'clock and I start making dinner, and I go run my errands, and I contribute to my economy. And yeah, it's kind of wild. We don't have as much opportunity for interaction, and I think the pandemic made that even worse.

I think a lot of the places where people went to be part of communities disappeared during the pandemic or were reduced. A lot of people I know are working remotely now -- and I'm for it, don't get me wrong. I think it's just so stupid to sit in two hours of traffic every day to go to an office building just because it's there. But I do think that we need to, in response, we need to make sure that we have exposure to other human beings. It has such a positive impact on mental health. And in an increasingly digital world where you can just sit on Discord or whatever it is and talk to people that way, you have to remember that the human element is so important to the fabric of our being. So whether you're a person who loves music or whatever it is, go out and find your community. That's going to have a major impact on your mental health.

Andrew Mall: I like hearing Ali's personal reflection there about her work life and kind of feeling isolated even though you enjoy a lot of flexibility when you're working from home. The thing about the "third place" concept is that a lot of people actually don't have a workplace that we go to every day. So, I have a full-time job, and I go to campus to teach, but I'm not in my office every day. I spend most of my days working from home. Other people are entrepreneurs or they're contractors or they're gig workers or they do have a full-time job like me, but it takes place on their own time, on their own hours working from home like Ali was talking about. So this kind of social isolationism is something that is, I feel like increasingly common, more so than it was in the late 1980s when these urban sociologists were developing this idea of the "third place." I mean, maybe the third place for many people is now the second place. It's where we're finding primary social connectedness outside of our home. I think that's really important to think about because it elevates those third places to being more meaningful than they might've been for people a generation ago.

Dana Bollen: Well said, Professor. So we're going to hear from Brandon Davis next of Vanna, Fever 333, Lions Lions, and Inspirit. And Brandon's going to talk about how he's made friendships through these communities and the importance of the mental health connection with these friendships and these relationships.

Brandon Davis: I think the music scene has had a positive effect on my mental health because I've built a lot of lifelong friendships. Earlier we talked about A Loss of Words. I went from seeing A Loss of Words at All About Records. That was 20 years ago. Those people are still my friends to this day. So I think just that whole community in general, the positive effects that it's had on my mental health have been great. It's just been really long lasting friendships and bonds with these people, and I feel like that just sparks serotonin and just sparks dopamine. You know what I mean? I dunno. I love it. It's making me smile right now. People I met when I was a teenager are still in my life to this day.

I've never really put a whole lot of thought into how is the do-it-yourself music scene affecting my mental health? And I do think that there are a lot of people out there that would definitely have a lot of stories to tell about how they were feeling really down, And then they saw that The Wonder Years was coming to play a VFW hall in their town. I think that seeing that, especially being somebody in high school, maybe even middle school, and just having a tough time, whatever, maybe you have a bully at school. Maybe your parents are fighting each other. Maybe you have acne, who cares, whatever. Something's bothering you, and then you just get that glimmer of Title Fight's coming, they're going to play in a basement. It's like, "Oh my god, this is going to make me so happy." So I think that for a lot of people, that is the effect of the mental health is that they can be really struggling, and then they can go to some dingy warehouse to see their favorite band.

And it's again, like I said earlier, it's self-goverend, there's no security, there's no barricade. It's like if somebody falls over, everybody just picks them up. It's very special. It's like, "This is special to me. I'm depressed and I'm here. This is essentially my version of church. This is a religious experience for me. I am crowd surfing and I have forgotten that my parents are getting divorced for this 30 minutes." And honestly, to be real with you, I don't even think it needs to be minimized to a do-it-yourself thing. I think that same thing happens at a Taylor Swift concert. I think the reason why these women are crying their eyes out is because somebody rear-ended them three days ago and now they're watching Taylor Swift and they forgot about that. You know what I mean? For that moment, for this duration of the show, they're like, "I've been waiting for this. I bought these tickets a year ago." So I think music in general, again, I know this is supposed to be a specific podcast about do-it-yourself, but I just think music in general and the relation between music and mental health is just simply the fact that it provides a comfort to people.

Dana Bollen: Brandon and I actually met in recent years at a Comeback Kid show. It was right after things opened up, post-pandemic. I was at the show by myself, he was at the show by himself, and we were outside. We just started talking, and we just hit it off. And I think we stood outside of the Middle East and spoke for an hour that day. And since then, we've run into each other at shows many times. I've gone to see his band play. We keep in touch on the socials, and I know that that is a homie for life. I love running into him. And that's just one example, and he gave a couple examples of what we all gain through these DIY music scenes that contributes to our mental health positively that come along with the great music. It just speaks to what Ali was talking about and what Brandon was talking about, as far as that human element that goes beyond the music itself. When you came out to that Piebald show the other night and you sent me a text afterwards and you were like, "Dude, I'm so glad I came out. I needed that."

Andrew Mall: I'm so glad you invited me out to that show, man. I hadn't been out in a while and just had two or three really busy weeks at work and busy with my family, and to have the time to just hang out and to see some music, it was really affirming in a lot of ways.

Dana Bollen: So we're going to kick it to Joey Chiaramonte of Koyo. Joey's going to talk a little bit about that, but he also talks about burnout and how he deals with that. That's an important part of mental health, because we all burn the candle at both ends when we're just trying to juggle all these different things in our life. And I think it's important that we talk about burnout, how you manage that and how you get through that. Joey Chiaramonte, Koyo.

Joey Chiaramonte: I think it's a interestingly nuanced question because at face value, especially for younger people, like a teenager or someone who needs some type of rock in their life, it's definitely a positive thing and does provide, in my mind, a positive impact on mental health because it gives you something to believe in or something to lean on when you otherwise might not have had that. Different people have different backgrounds, life experience. Not everyone has something dependable in their life, and it is something that is largely dependable, and I think that's really great.

By trade off, you give your life to an alternative lifestyle or alternative subculture. It comes with tribulations. It's not always the most conventional thing to do, and I do think that provides its own set of challenges in ways that it could 180 in terms of the mental. It's not all copacetic all the time. It's like if you're a real ride or die for your art or what you believe in or things that matter to you, and those aren't things that explicitly are celebrated in grander society, it can be equally polarizing or alienating and kind of needless struggle at times, I would even say.

I burn out plenty. I burn out all the damn time, it feels like sometimes. It ebbs and flows. Sometimes you got it all on lock, and you're in a good place, and you got your shit handled, and sometimes you're a total mess. And I think that's just life to a degree. I've never been a person who's over the years in my young adult life, I've never shied away from resources like therapy, which were always, especially when I was in my earlier twenties, helped me through a lot of shit, which is great. I know not everyone can afford or has the mental bandwidth to take on something like that, but it has been positive for my life in the grand scheme of things. And I think also just time management in the way of -- I'm not the best with time management in general, but I do certainly make time for things that make me happy and things that fulfill me. And even when things that are fulfilling stress me out, I find time to contrast them with other things that make me happy that I think keeps everything copacetic.

It's all one giant balancing act. It's like if home's bum me out, there was always tour, but now I'm at a point in my life where sometimes tour is bumming me out and I make good on the time I have at, home and it kind of just puts everything in check and makes you appreciate everything. In a perfect world, it's one month on, two to three months off, and you can't always make those decisions if this is the line of work that you're heavily vested in. Sometimes the opportunities decide for you. But generally speaking, I found a lot of love for the time I get at home and the time I get with my friends and my family. And I have a revitalized love for tour as well as a byproduct.

Dana Bollen: Joey said so many great things in there, Professor. In particular. Joey mentioned time management. This is something that I don't think I'll ever master it, but I do struggle with it big time, especially when an opportunity presents itself and my plate is already full. Maybe I'm already burning the candle at both ends because I had been on tour for three tours back-to-back-to-back, and I'm just looking forward to a break where I might have a whole month off where I can catch up with the rest of my life. Well, guess what? Alkaline Trio just called and they need someone to drive a truck and do merch. That is not something I could say "no" to. That is a dream come true. This happened to me a few months ago. I was so looking forward to this time off, but you don't say "no" to that opportunity. And it also, guess what? Maybe I'll tow with them again in the future. So I really struggle with time management and just kind of knowing when to stop sometimes. What about you, Professor? You are always doing a million things. We talk about it on Zoom every time before we hit "record." Quite honestly, I admire it. It's inspiring to me. But you must struggle with this stuff too, right?

Andrew Mall: I definitely struggle with this stuff. The example you just gave of an opportunity comes up and you can't say "no" to it, you don't want to say "no" to it, even though maybe that's maybe not the best use of your time, or you were looking forward to spending your time in a different way. That really resonates with me. I don't go on tour. Alkaline Trio is not calling me, but I get professional opportunities regularly that I struggle to find a way to say "no" to because it's work that I enjoy. My approach to time management is -- I am good at juggling a bunch of projects, and I'm good at carving out time for my family and taking care of my kids and being present for my partner. But there are a lot of things I'm not great at. I'm not great at maintaining friendships, especially with people that I don't talk to or see regularly. I'm not great at staying in touch with my parents and my siblings. And I do feel like sometimes I have so many projects going on at once that I start to let people down because I can't give enough time to each project that it really deserves.

So I guess I would say, Dana, it's all a facade. I keep all these plates spinning well enough that none fall, but I also feel like I'm letting people down regularly and that's not a good feeling. So a lot of what I'm hearing from Joey really does resonate with me because I struggle with that too, if I'm being honest. We asked Chris Wrenn of Bridge Nine Records, how he deals with burnout and he had some really great insight. So we're going to turn to Chris Wrenn next.

Chris Wrenn: I burn myself out. I work too hard, I carry too many things. Right now is a good example. We have a skeleton staff, we have the smallest staff we've had in 20 years. We're still rebuilding, physically building our space. A lot of our store's built and our warehouse is good, but we're still addressing other parts of our building. So my plate has been fuller than it's ever been, and we're still trying to continue to put out new albums and run two businesses. So it's difficult. You do need to find ways to take some of the edge off and make it easier on yourself. I know for me, I find myself saying, "Why am I working so hard sometimes?" But ultimately I'm not working in a coal mine. I'm doing something that I love, and I'm doing something that other people love. I've positioned myself in a place where it's really fulfilling. I get to create things that people are excited about, not just in my neighborhood but everywhere around the world. And so I feel really proud of that, and there's a lot of really good feelings associated with the work that goes into it. But I'm also trying to build something that will outlast our space and outlast me. It's a lot, I think, sometimes to carry.

So if you're just dealing with being overwhelmed, I mean putting in the work, creating the foundation for what you want to do, which is really important. But just find ways to -- I know for me, on Friday mornings, my wife and I'll go get coffee, and we'll take it and we go to the beach down the street and just sit there for a half an hour and kind of chill out. Appreciate our time together and take a deep breath I guess. But yeah, try not to shoulder everything on your own, if you can. Try and network as much as possible. Something that I'm continuing to realize and I'm continuing to try and reach out is there are people that want to help you. And once you get something started, other people will step up to help you, if you know when and where to ask for it. When we were building our space here, a lot of it was on my shoulders and this gentleman, Larry Kelly who helped with a big part of the renovation. But we had helpers that came in that did stuff like some of our demo, some of the concrete work, some of the painting, things that we just couldn't do all of it ourselves. And these were people that were happy to volunteer time because they saw value in what we're trying to do here.

I know with us, with our space, there's not a lot of DIY kind of record store venue kind of event spaces that are owned and operated by the people that are running them. And we somehow figured out how to make that happen, but it's so much bigger of a project than we ever anticipated. So for me, a lot of it has been just trying to reach out to people and say, "Hey, we need help in these different areas." And I do it as much as I can. I probably should do it more. But I think it's important when people are doing their own thing to realize even though it's do-it-yourself and DIY, ultimately if you're going to succeed, you do need help. So knowing when and where to ask and to make yourself, I don't know, vulnerable and just accept the fact that you need -- it takes a village, right.

Dana Bollen: All right, Professor. When we conducted this interview with Chris Wrenn just a few months back, I vividly recall I was at the point of burnout between all the touring I was doing and trying to balance other projects. I think that's something we can all relate to. And another thing, what you said right before we led into that clip from Chris, when you opened up about your own personal struggles from day to day and how you try to balance everything, you often feel like you're letting people down. That hit home for me, dude. Not to be corny here on the air and have this weird heart-to-heart, but that really hit home for me, and I think it was important that you said that because it was a good reminder for me to hear someone else say it that they're having these same struggles. I always feel like I'm letting people down as well, which ties right into my mental health.

Andrew Mall: Yeah, man, thanks, I appreciate that.

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Andrew Mall: One thing that I was thinking, just along the time management topic, is time management isn't about finding all the time for all the things, but it's about prioritizing the time that you do have for the things that are most important to you. And that's something that I still struggle with. I think that a lot of people still struggle with. We may have overcommitted ourselves, and the answer isn't just to keep going and going and going, although so many of us, including myself, are guilty of that. I think the answer is just to be strategic and intentional about how you do spend the time and the energy and the resources to live the life that you want to live, to build the relationships that are important to you.

And to hear Chris talk about it, to hear you reflect on me opening up, reminds me that Ace told us almost at the beginning of this episode that we're not alone. I may not have the answers, all the answers, I certainly don't. Chris may not have all the answers, but being able to hear someone and to connect with someone to share the challenges that you're experiencing, and maybe to get a little bit of insight into how they're dealing with it, that reminds us it's an important way to connect with someone and to remind us that we don't have to go through this life by ourselves. Sharing our struggles is part of how we connect with people and it's also part of how we figure out our own lives and how to keep investing ourselves into the things that are important to us.

Dana Bollen: That was so well said, dude. So next we're going to kick it to Luke Garro, and Luke's going to talk about the connection between these DIY music scenes and his mental health. Luke Garro, Piebald.

Luke Garro: DIY communities can certainly have an impact on mental health. From my experience, the benefits were very positive. You had a lot of people from different places getting together. And my experience, growing up in a suburb of Connecticut was, I went to middle school and high school and everyone there was kind of insular and friends with each other, whatnot. And then me and a small group of friends would go out to a DIY venue and there would be all these different versions of us from every other suburb in Connecticut. You kind of look around and you're like, "Oh, a lot of us are the misfits or the people that just don't want to be involved." I wouldn't say I was a misfit. I grew up playing soccer and whatnot. If anything, I broke off of the mainstream. But there's a lot of people there that you could tell were just like, "I need this. This is where all of my people are, this is where my tribe is, these are my friends." And being able to go into this room of possibly hundreds of people that are like you after being in a high school with just as many people, but you feeling like none of them are your people, and if anything, maybe you're getting picked on or bullied or whatever. And then to be able to come to here is just a very, very positive experience to see so many people that you can connect with and feel like are similar to you and you could grow these friends outside of there.

You really develop this camaraderie and it's like the same thing could be said of -- let's say you have some alternative band shirt on, and you're out in the middle of nowhere, and you see somebody else with another shirt, ad you know that those bands play together. You kind of lock eyes and you're like, "Oh wow, we're both into the same stuff." Same thing. You go to a DIY show when you're used to being surrounded by a lot of people that don't quote "get it," and you're in this room with all these people that get it with you. It develops such good camaraderies and the connections that come from that. I still have people to this day, 30 plus years later, where I'm like, "I met you at one show in West Hartford and now we're still friends," and that's cool. And it really creates this support network.

And I think a lot of mental health issues, some of them can certainly come from not having the right support and allowing negative ideas to stew on their own inside your head without being able to express them. So to be able to come to a DIY show and express yourself, to feel supported, to feel like you're with like-minded people, can help diffuse a lot of those bad thoughts that are in your head or if anything, give you a release, give you that license to release it within that environment. To be able to feel like I had my own crew regardless of my suburban existence, I could go bigger than the suburb I was from and have this friend network and these people that were like, "I'm pretty sure these people would go to bat for me if they had to. This is my little mini gang that I have," or whatever, it was definitely very helpful. I think a support network can help a lot of people that might be struggling, and being in an environment where you see other people similar to yourself and being able to diffuse some of those thoughts and emotions is very helpful.

Andrew Mall: I love when I'm out and about wearing a band shirt and someone I've never seen before shoots me a high five or just shouts across the street, "Hey, I love your shirt, love that band." That happened to me. I was leaving a bagel shop several years ago, and some guy in a pickup truck just stopped at the intersection. He was like, "Hey, is that the band Cursive?" I was wearing a Cursive shirt. And I was like, "Yeah, man." He's like, "I love that band!" I was like, "Thanks dude!" And he kept going. It happened to me earlier -- I was at a conference in Philadelphia and I was at this craft beer bar, and I was eating dinner with some friends, and I was wearing a Thursday t-shirt, and our server halfway through our meal was like, "Man, I love that band." And so then we were bonding over music too.

Here's the thing. We were talking earlier about feeling like an outcast, feeling like a misfit, feeling like you don't connect maybe with people in high school or other social situations. You mentioned the goths, and sometimes these outcast groups have their own specific style or way of dress. That does a couple of things. One thing that does is it sets that group off from mainstream society. Sometimes it's very clear that we are not part of mainstream. But the other thing that it does is it signals to other people, like, "We are one of you." Even if you don't know them. Band t-shirts will function in a similar way. It's a way of expressing your culture and your community. It's also a way of signaling to others, like Ace reminded us at the beginning, that you're not alone. Luke was talking about tribalism. And when I see other band shirts or other people who dress like they just came out of a show, it reminds me that the tribe isn't this tiny little insular thing that only exists at the Knight of Columbus hall on Friday nights. Our tribe is legion. Our tribe is everywhere. And we run into those folks at Disneyland, and outside the bagel shop, at a craft beer bar in Philly, everywhere.

Dana Bollen: That is so true, Professor. I could definitely relate to that. My entire wardrobe is band shirts. That's all I wear, literally. But I guess a little inside baseball here, speaking to having a tribe and a support network, when I'm in the van with Piebald and we're driving 10 hours somewhere, that is my safe space where I know my brothers. We all can be open and talk about anything. When you're in the trenches together day in and day out, grinding it out on the road, speaking to mental health, I mean, that's all I have in that moment. If I got something going on that I got to get off my chest, whether it's related to the work we're doing or something outside of that in my personal life, I know that I can talk about it there with my tribe, with my support network, and helps me get by from day to day. It's a beautiful thing that in this day and age, it's okay to feel vulnerable and to let things out and talk about what you might be really sad about or what brings you anxiety.

[Two Week Notice excerpts]: Hey folks, if you like this podcast, then you will definitely dig the Two Week Notice podcast. For those of you who don't know, I host another podcast where I interview musicians in the DIY, hardcore, punk, emo, the scene. That show is called the Two Week Notice podcast. You could find the link to the Two Week Notice podcast in the show notes of this episode that you are listening to right now, or go on your preferred podcast platform and type in Two Week Notice. It's the one with the peace sign. And I think it would be very fitting to play a few clips from Two Week Notice right now on this show to give you an idea of the vibe that is Two Week Notice. And these particular clips are very pertaining to this mental health discussion that we're having right now. So here's a clip from the Two Week Notice podcast from my interview with Missy Dabice of Mannequin Pussy.

Missy Dabice: It was a lot of fun. I started to understand a little bit about just the gang mentality that kind of comes with being in a band.

Dana Bollen: The camaraderie, right?

Missy Dabice: Exactly.

Dana Bollen: Yeah, that's a beautiful thing and there is some special bond. I think it's just, if you just think about show to show, it's like a miracle that everyone gets there every day and just what you go through. I really don't know how to explain it, but I don't know. What do you think?

Missy Dabice: I mean, just like you're a traveling circus. You're all these little freaks living your non-traditional lives, just hoping that you make it to the next show and you're all doing this because you really love to do it. And you become each other's friends and coworkers in this very strange environment. And I think because touring is so difficult -- no one can really understand just how hard touring is on the mind and body and soul, really, until you've done a six week tour. Just the physical and chemical changes that you go through. And I think that's why you're all just in this state of exhaustion that you really cling and connect to each other. And I think also, as you know, touring is so psychotic, and you're just thrown all these things and all these trials and tribulations all the time, and so you really need to make sure that your shit is grounded and your mind is grounded, because you're going to have to navigate all these situations with as much grace as you possibly can because if you let the outside world totally frazzle you, it's going to throw you off your shit.

Dana Bollen: Here's a clip from the Two Week Notice podcast from my interview with Jack O'Shea of Bayside.

You know what, you want to get deep real quick?

Jack O'Shea: Let's do it.

Dana Bollen: All right. Yeah, because you are one of those positive guys. I feel like you and I have pretty similar personalities in a lot of ways.

Jack O'Shea: Easy going and just like that. But, if someone fucks with you, are you like the switch goes and you're like, "Now I'm going to kill a motherfucker"?

Dana Bollen: Sometimes, it depends. Yeah. I don't know. I get in ruts sometimes. I mean, human interaction certainly pulls me out of it, but I isolate myself, but I don't have --

Jack O'Shea: I'm good at that though. I do treasure isolation to some degree. I think the busier your life gets, I think that it's important to be able to pull away and to isolate. I think when it's healthy, and I do enjoy a healthy amount of that -- but you have the kind of personality where people I think are drawn to because I think you're friendly, you're outgoing, and then it's also one of those things where it's just like, "Yeah, man, of course, let's do it. Whatever. Let's do it. Whatever it takes." I mean, not to be corny about it, but it's like a can-do attitude and I'm like, "Yes, that's great. Let's do that."

Dana Bollen: Right.

Jack O'Shea: I think you take yourself the right amount of seriously. I don't think -- there's certainly a lot of people who either tend not to take themselves seriously at all, or it's like militant, I think there's a happy medium in there. But that sort of positivity is good. I think that it just feeds the energy of the entire group, especially on a run like that where it's like ,there are three camps all traveling together and everyone is kind of friendly. The energy is good, the energy is high. Everyone wants to be -- when everyone's firing, then that's truly when tour is the best that it can be.

Dana Bollen: A hundred percent. But my follow up question, when you find yourself in a rut or something, how do you pull yourself out?

Jack O'Shea: I'm not very good at it. I feel like it's difficult too. And again, I think a lot of people with the personalities that we're talking about, I think that it's really easy to hide the fact sometimes that you're in that rut. You know what I mean?

Dana Bollen: Totally.

Jack O'Shea: So I feel like I've gone through -- there are years that I could point back to on touring where I feel like nobody that I would hang out with every night would have any idea, but it was like I'm in some really dark places right now. And I think that, in a lot of respects touring and being at Bayside has always provided a certain level of therapy for me because it's been the supreme constant in the last 20 plus years or 20 years of my life in the sense that, when things are down, no matter what had happened, it was like, got to get back in, got to get back on this. Got to keep strong with this. And I'm really lucky to have Anthony, Nick, and Chris with me, and then the crew. We have crew come in and out, but usually there's long tenured crew that have been around for a number of years.

So it always feels like a very safe space. And being on tour, kind of going through the things that I'm the most comfortable with, things that I feel like that I'm good at, has always done a lot just to kind of energize me. But that having been said, I still have been socially social outwardly, but still kind of in a dark place. I could tell you certainly Warped Tours where I barely came out of -- It's like I get out of bed for an hour and a half a day and it's like, I got to play. I got to do this thing, and then I'm fucking out of here. So it's like anything else, but I think that the prevailing attitude that I try to maintain is one of positivity, and I feel like I know probably my bandmates might argue that sometime I just become a little bit negative, but I try to stay up there as much as possible.

Dana Bollen: Here's a clip of the Two Week Notice podcast from my interview with Matt Pryor of The Get Up Kids.

This one really hit home for me. I actually wrote this one down, after your first Europe tour right here: "The house is silent. I am alone with my thoughts for the first time since I can remember, and it scares the ever-living shit out of me." When you're on the road for so long, all you want to do is sleep in your own bed and fucking go home after a while, and then you get there, and I don't know, it's this weird moment when all of a sudden it's silent. I get depressed for a bit.

Matt Pryor: It's weird. It gets even weirder when you have a family and you have to come home and immediately jump into the role of parent. Because the thing that I don't think I realized about touring, and I'm assuming that other people don't, is that it's actually really structured. It's really chaotic, but you still have to be places at a certain time, and you have to do certain things at a certain time. And if you're performing or you're working and you're drinking, you need to make sure you don't drink too much before you go on stage. And there's just a structure to it. And then all you want to do is come home and be like, "I just don't want to do -- I just need a break." And then you come home and you're like, "Now I don't know what to do with myself."

Dana Bollen: Totally.

Matt Pryor: You got to figure that out, and it can be kind of freaky. I finished the book, and the book ends in 2000, the end of 1999, 2000. And so you spend months and months and months writing about this time in your life, and I've already got this sort of complex that people think that it's only the first two records we ever did that are any good. And you can fall into that kind of trap. Aand then you write a whole book about that time of your life and you kind of go like, "Well ..." I guess I start to feel like Uncle Rico in Napoleon Dynamite, where you're just always talking about the big game in high school even when you're a middle-aged man. And so that kind of bummed me out. I was proud of myself for writing a book, and then that kind of bummed me out.

And then we went on the Four Minute Mile 25th anniversary tour, and that was awesome. But then when that was over, I was just like, "Well, shit, maybe I really did peak at 20 and I've just got this successful tour about it and this book about it." And then it led into the winter and I was just like, "I don't even know who I am anymore. My kids are older, they don't need me as much." And I was just, it sent me on a pretty dark spiral where my drinking fueled my depression and my depression fueled my drinking, and it got worse and worse and worse, until February where I ended up going into the hospital and quitting drinking. And things are way better now. But you can -- in my mind, I can draw a line from finishing the book to quitting drinking. I just had to get really dark between those two things. It is a positive, now.

Dana Bollen: Did you have a scare? You don't have to get into it if you don't want to. That's okay.

Matt Pryor: As far as?

Dana Bollen: The drinking, you said you went to the hospital and stuff?

Matt Pryor: Oh, yeah. Yeah. I ended up in the hospital. I ended up in the hospital twice. Once because my wife made me go, and I was just completely dehydrated. I was basically sort of bulimic. I was just sort of not eating, but still drinking and throwing up a lot. And I lost a lot of weight, but it's bad. It's not a good way to do it. And I ended up in the hospital and I was severely dehydrated. It was on Super Bowl Sunday, actually, of last year. And then two weeks after that, I decided to check into a detox place in Kansas City for a couple of days just to dry out. And then things have been much better since then.

Dana Bollen: You were drinking that heavily or just, you just …?

Matt Pryor: Yeah.

Dana Bollen: Yeah.

Matt Pryor: It was just kind of like a -- I mean, I don't know how much I was drinking. I mean, I wasn't keeping score. It was enough to put me in the hospital.

Dana Bollen: You haven't had a drink since then?

Matt Pryor: A year ago, February 28th.

Dana Bollen: Wow, man, great job.

Here's a clip of the Two Week Notice podcast for my interview with Brian Sella of The Front Bottoms.

I get in my head this stuff, I get anxiety and shit, sometimes.

Brian Sella: What I'll do is focus on one little negative thing that's not as big of a deal at all, but it's just something to distract me. So I'll focus on it, and that's where my anxiety is. So I got to just keep it cool.

Dana Bollen: How do you talk yourself down from that? I get in my head with stuff that's like, 99.9% of the time, It's probably nothing. Stuff that doesn't even matter. But I'm a worrior, is that what you mean?

Brian Sella: I think just it's a process, of course, in terms of walking yourself out of it. I think it's just a lot of meditation and reminding yourself over and over again. You fail a lot. You stress and you feel the anxiety and stuff, and sometimes it's a lot to overcome, but you push it. I wouldn't say that I'm a worrier because it's not usually the things that I'm worrying about are not things to be worried about. They're just my own distractions that I create in my head. Small things, little things, like if -- it has a lot to do with control, as you know, and all the X factors are where the anxiety comes from. And if you're about to do something like bring all of this new equipment somewhere to record something, it's like, "What could go wrong? Aside from everything?" But it doesn't, usually everything doesn't go wrong, so it's just like you just got to kind of remind yourself of that. It's like you don't have control over things, so you got to really go with the flow, and you got to always kind of remember that.

Dana Bollen: Make sure to check out the Two Week Notice podcast on most podcast platforms or just follow the link in the description of this current podcast episode.

Andrew Mall: We are going to hear from Chad Johnson and Johnny Grimes next. They're two of the organizers of Furnace Fest, and they've cultivated a community around the event where supporting each other is the norm, where providing resources for people who are struggling is not abnormal, It's become expected. So Chad Johnson first and then Johnny Grimes of Furnace Fest.

Chad Johnson: Not necessarily mental health, but something that's closely connected, which is the world of addiction. And from the start, there has always been a desire for AA to be a part of Furnace Fest. Even though most of us enjoy alcohol, and most of us probably feel like it's not a problem and is not a temptation to chug six Furnace Fest beers in a short amount of time while watching The Acacia Strain. But for some people, that obviously is a problem. And so, to just watch the way a tent is staffed and is taken care of id has attended for all of those who find themselves struggling with, probably what would be a very triggering and tempting environment to be in, is actually super cool. And one of the obvious examples, to me anyway, of how the community and the DIY world is so supportive.

Johnny Grimes: I mean, my personal experience is the same. I mean, we've seen so many great organizations partner with us, whether it be Heart Support, whether it be Punk Rock Saves Lives, whether it be AA. There's been so many great organizations that come in and just help promote the importance of being aware -- whether it be addiction or mental health and those types of things -- but also offer support to those who are struggling. And we see it all the time, almost weekly, people stepping in and helping individuals within our community group who are struggling, whether it be financially, with their health, whether it be relationally. We see it happen weekly where people step in and help others. At the end of the day, that's what it's about.

Dana Bollen: All right, and that pretty much wraps up this episode of Live Free or DIY on mental health. Professor, I'm really happy that we were able to dive into this topic that is so important for an entire episode, and I think it was the perfect follow-up from the previous episode about community and relationships and camaraderies in the DIY scenes because I really think they go hand in hand.

Andrew Mall: Yeah, I totally agree. It gave us a place today to be a bit vulnerable, right, me and you? I want to thank our interview guests for also opening up and sharing their own experiences. Not always easy to do, and sometimes it takes courage to talk freely and openly about the challenges that we face in our own lives. Chad and Johnny were talking about resources that they have available at Furnace Fest for addiction, recovery, depression, self-harm, and suicidal thoughts. I want you to know, listener, that if you or a loved one dealing with any of those issues, you're not alone. There are resources available to you. Please check the show notes. We've compiled a bunch of information for you to reach out and to find help where you are. Dana, what are we doing on the next episode?

Dana Bollen: On the next episode, we are going to do a deep dive on what changes have we seen in the DIY music scenes and the challenges that we face moving forward.

Andrew Mall: So join us next time on Live Free Or DIY.

[Credits roll] Live Free Or DIY is co-hosted by myself, Andrew Mall.

Dana Bollen: This show is also co-hosted and produced by Dana Bollen, editing assistance from Ioanis Pintzopolous.

Andrew Mall: Research assistance and production assistance by Anthony Robbins. Funding provided by Northeastern University.

Dana Bollen: Graphic design by Kara Burr. Cover photo shot by Todd Pollock. Podcast theme song brought to you by Piebald and Iodine Recordings. Head on over to Iodinerecordings.com for very special anniversary vinyl represses from bands such as Piebald, Fastbreak, Quicksand, Further Seems Forever, Stretch Armstrong, as well as incredible new artists signings, The New Scene podcast, and so much more. That's Iodinerecordings.com. And lastly, if you enjoyed the show, make sure to rate, subscribe and follow on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, YouTube, and Instagram. You can find links to everything in the show notes of this very episode.

Andrew Mall
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Live Free Or D.I.Y. Episode #04: Community